News: TOUR Notes

Wow!! Bradley was obvious, but Donald without a significant victory? I’m starting to think that the PGA Tour is trying to “make nice” with some of these guys as they’ve seen in writing where there’s so much ink for the new American breed. I’m sure Donald will spin this like he did the “both tours” moey title, even though Tiger did it about 6-7 times in a row. How can this guy sleep at night as such a fraud?

PGA Tour Player of The Year
PGA Player of The Year
PGA Tour Money List Title
Vardon Trophy
Byron Nelson Award

Tiger like collection of awards for Donald from the PGA Tour this year.

Well said dave

O and congratulations to Luke Donald, probably the most consistent worldwide string of golf tournaments played yet by an individual in the 21st century.

Gail, four victories including a WGC event and the BMW Championship (flagship event on Euro Tour). 182 under par and 20 top 10′s. Even his peers think his accomplishment is outstanding. Get over your bias and jealousy and try being humble – far better characteristic.

Looke, enjoy it while it lasts! It may be your last time to get it.

Gail – well done, you obviously only write something to get a response but lack the intelligence to produce something with any value at all so deserve the numpty accolade that all readers wish for you..

Why is Gail so biased? Does she wake up every morning crying into an American flag while belting out her national anthem or something?

@gail
I wonder if you know the difference between a 7up and a 7 iron. Are you by any chance blond?

*helping

Looking forward to seeing the #1 playing in Australia this weekend! Luuuukkkkeee!!!

Look out Augusta

There will be roars of LUUUKKKKKKEEEEEEEEE heard throughout Augusta on the back 9 in April

Luke Donald’s golf game is hotter than me

@Gail,

Feel very sorry for you, think you need to take up golf before you speak.

Harrington won player of the year in 2008

Is Gail George Bush is disguise? She certainly seems stupid enough…

As a college golfer myself hoping to get on tour in 2 years, I would just like to say well done to Luke Donald. Well deserved and is quite easily the best player in the world at the moment. I hope to compete against him soon on the tour.

Isn’t it funny that the PGA Tour felt Donald had done quite well this year? How perverse that the VOTING PGA Tour Players came up with the same result!!!!

Well done Luke you are a gentleman and a star of rare talent.

Gail… thinking should produce educated and informed comments which seem lacking in your shallow understanding of the reasons why Luke is now POY 2011. It is for this year only and regardless of who ever has justly earned it previously, it is purely based on this year and whether you look at average scores, victories, top tens or professionalism LD wins hands down. Golf has become a global game as was seen recently in the PGA loose interest in the HSBC in China. Whilst the PGA POY is for events sanctioned by the PGA the game is far more eclectic than in previous years.

Forgot to say well done Luke and Happy Christmas.

You are fooling yourself if you think Donald will contend at Augusta. It just won’t happen.

X24 hot.. Your a fool to think Donald won’t be in contention at Augusta.. you obviously havn’t been watching what i’ve been watching over the last 18 months.

Gail, why are you such a complete mentalist? How do you manage to speak with both feet in your mouth?

The DELUDED ONE is getting a lot of responses here.. she will be loving it.

I feel sorry for X24 Hot more than Gail because I think he’s actually being serious all the time. At least gail makes it obvious that he/she is a wind-up merchant.

Donald definitely won’t contend? But he contends every week? Why would that stop suddenly at the peak of his career? Where do people come up with these statements with no backing other than talking out of their ***?

Euros and majors don’t compute. You think guys like McDowell are threats going forward? He should nail that trophy to the mantle, as he won’t need to move it to make room for another. Euros always dodge the bigger question, which is why guys like Westwood and Donld haven’t won one. Is Lee just coming into his prime, or should we wait for a “Tom Watson” type effort when he’s close to 60. Why are these questions always substituted with “he was in the top 10.” Show me winners, and it doesn’t seem to be anyone near the top of your heap…

Congrats to Luke on POY….He is, now, officially The Best Player To Have Never Won A Major!

The European tour is far stronger now than the US tour. Since there is considerably more money on the US, than the European tour many players come and play in the US.

Six of the last eight majors have been won by members of the European tour and the top four players in the world are European, these are all undisputable facts.

I think that Gail is nothing more than a spoon. Her purpose is to stir things up.

But seriously, congats to Luke and Keegan. I think that Luke’s consistant playing on this side of the pond makes him a great choice.

Keegan winning a major in his rookie year is reason enough to give him ROY honors.

People that think Simpson should have won are seriously deluded. Congratulations Keegan, thouroughly deserved.

Luke Donald: Credit to the Game and Perfect Idol for Aspiring Sportsmen – http://www.thegolfdebate.wordpress.com
@thegolfdebate

Jim.. Bradley is right, most Americans apart from Tiger and Phil will strive to be like Luke Donald.. next year If a Watney or a Mahan have a similar season to what Donald did this season, people like Gail would anoint them as Americas new hero.

@Gail,
god bless you Gail I hope you are now feeling much better, take care and learn, sometimes it pays to keep quite

Did anyone hear Donald refer to how terrific it would be to win the Grand Slam? This from a guy who has never contended in a major. See, this is exactly the attitude that turns the rest of the world against these more pompous players. You actually need to win ONE before you talk about winning more than one. Tiger discussed it, as he won three in one year and four in a row, which we know as the Tiger Slam. I guess the Luke Slam would be winning the Disney and the Irish Open in one year? C’mon guys…please, please get serious when discussing this blokes game. He’s a nice kid, but can’t he win something important, anything at all, before we make believe he’s the real deal?

So now Donald you’re portraying Luke Donald, a gentleman of sport as more pompous and arrogant than Woods?

Any more jokes and we’d be on Comedy Central.

Dropping his putter as ‘disrespectful’ when he won 7.5 million euros and won the Race to Dubai, when Tiger fist pumps all of the time in people’s faces was particularly amusing.

(don’t think tiger fistpumping is disrespectful either)

Dave.. Tiger Woods fistpumps a par putt on the 1st green.. don’t get me wrong, I like pa$$ion in a player but Tiger takes it a bit to far at times.

David H (is that for hiarious?) or Dave W or Dave or whatever…I guess he just “rested it against his leg” with his arms outstretched to the sky, looking like the Reverend in Caddy Shack when he missed the putt for the course record. Are you guys serious, or just pulling my leg? You really want anyone to believe that he didn’t make the “did you see what I just did” gesture? This “gentleman of the sport” has had a lot to say recently about Tiger and Rory, and when he put his foot in his mouth, did you see how quickly he needed to retract what he said, as he was obviously afraid Tiger might do a “Stepen Ames” to him? Call me when this guy wins something other than the Scottish or French or British or the other tourneys you think are important. Win at Augusta? Yeah, right….

Luke’s play was stellar and he is clearly deserving of every accolade he receives. POY by far.

But let’s not get too carried away with the “first” double money list thing. Tiger made more money on the European Tour than the Order of Merit winner on 7 different occasions as a non-member.

That puts what Luke has done to shame.

Gail.. DOWNRIGHT DISRESPECT! Donald’s father died only a few months ago, he was pointing at his late father when he pointed at the sky. Get your FACTS! right before making ABSURD claims.

Speaking of Luke, maybe you guys watched the last round at Dubai, where Luke hit a boatload of poor shots, only to get it up and down every time and make pretty much every putt. The problem is, like that great American MAJOR winner Lee Trevino made very clear: The two things that don’t last are dogs that chase cars, and pros that putt for pars….he better start driving it a lot better, and quick…

gail please just stop. now. thanks.

Donald shot a 66 in Dubai of 6 birdies and 0 bogeys in the final round. He birdied the last three holes. How can you criticise that?

More jokes from the stand up comedy show on Comedy Central.

Yes
That isn’t nice. She may be way off base all the time, and her head may be stuck in TW’s rear end, but that’s no reason to disparage the world’s oldest profession.

@Gail,

Please dont make any more comments, you are a disgrace.

Gail.. admit it? You are loving this.

but the goalposts will just change gail if he wins the Players or a major, next thing will be that he’s no good because he won’t win something else.

Congrats both Luke and KG, both well deserved.It is so nice to have humble people win awards for a change.

As a side issue, I wonder if anyone else feels the same as me regarding the “World” tournament which Woods just won? How can the pga make such a mockery of the world golf ranking system by awarding 50 points to a 15 man tournament? What was there “world” about it? It appears to me this “tournament” was given some artificial elevated status about 3 years ago. This coincided with the demise of Woods and a desperation attempt to throw world points his way.

Is it not time to establish a rule where world points are only awarded in full field tournaments with a cut line, or at least a minimum 60 player field?

I would be interested in your comments.

I had a thought-perhaps they award so many points to TW’s tourney in order to attract a better field, but it’s not working.

To your second point “dblr”, what happens to the WGC events that would not qualify as “full field” events.

Shaun-
I know, but she does stir it up. Do you think she may work for PGA Tour and make unsupportable comments just to rile people up?

dblr.. the fact Tiger Woods moved up 32 places in the World Rankings for winning the Chevron in an 18 man field is a total farce. Alvaro Quiros finished tied 7th in the Hong Kong Open and moved DOWN 2 places from 51 to 53, Alvaro said it himself that he couldn’t believe it. He then WON the Dubai World Championship in a 60 man field with Worlds 1 to 4 playing, moving up from 53 to 21 a total of 32 places just like Tiger, What a JOKE.

dblr,
There is definitely an argument to be made about how limited field events are handled in the OWGR or whether they should be included at all.

However, the insinuation that there is some conspiracy theory to attract players is simply misguided. There is a very clearly defined criteria for how many points are awarded in an event based on the rankings of players in the field. So once a tournament is included in the rankings, there is no manipulation of the points awarded in any way.

It is available for all to see if you know where to look and how to interpret it. I would be happy to explain it a little bit if anybody is interested but it’s not particularly interesting or even understandable to most people!

GTP.. you were using a STAT! to claim that American Golf was slightly stronger, when in fact European golf is. Currently that the only American Stat you have in your favour.

Shaun,
Really dude? I am only claiming parity not superiority. I think 14-11, 18-20 and 37-34 are all indications of equality. My point was that people criticize American players currently when it is actually quite balanced.

Please read what I said.

The TOURS are not equal. The players are.

The Open Championship is the OLDEST and GREATEST Championship in Golf. FACT!!!

GTP.. if you say “really dude” I would take a guess and say it’s either Canada, South Africa or Australia.

Nice “guess” detective Shaun. You just named every primarily English speaking region in the world outside of the USA and Europe. How did you know?

Do you want to talk golf or have a pi**ing contest about who’s from where?

Got to be Canada.

Brads,
I miss you when we’re not together.

Gotta agree with my nemesis… A major beats POY any day. But who ever said it didn’t?

Our quarrels have only ever been about predicting the future and Keegan’s has more questions than answers.

Anybody else care to answer my next question along with Brads…

Would Luke Donald trade his game for Keegan Bradley’s going forward?

Very big congratulations to my favourite player, Luke Donald. You are the best!

GTP…I’ll make a few points to you…if you are a “knowledgable” player you may understand. Bradley is one of the purest ball strikers on the tour right now. I mean one of the best…the one hit wonders you refer to were not ball stikers…none of them. Think about it brotha. Now then, Bradley didn’t even putt that well this past year. Look at the stats….When he putts well for the whole year…IT IS OVER!!! He will win a a bundle!
Here endeth the lesson!!!! GO KEEGS,CONGRATS!

Well Brads, I’m a stats nerd so I accepted your challenge despite your incredible bias on the subject. What “stats” are you referring to?

Without getting too involved, most putting stats that are kept are not only meaningless but actively misleading. In some cases they do the opposite of tell the real story. For example, Putts per GIR has many more variables involved than putting that render it useless as a statistic. Quite possibly the worst stat in the history of golf. I would be happy to discuss this with anybody who cares.

The one (newly kept) putting stat that actually has true value is Strokes Gained. Keegan was pretty much right in the middle of the pack on tour at 97 of 186. Neither good nor bad. Neutral.

So what would indicate to you that he would ever be a better putter than that?

I saw him hit balls live on 2 separate occasions in 2011 and he definitely is not a bad striker. But his wedge play and scoring tools are nowhere near the top level. His results are consistent with that…hit it perfect and get in the mix a couple weeks a year. But when he strikes it poorly he will always score worse than most players.

Good point about Schwartzel, top player.

Anyone remember Anthony Kim? If he gets back to form he is one of the best American players. People forget about players very quickly, he can win a couple of times next season.

RE: Hunter Mahan only missed 3 cuts all year and had 9 top ten finishes! He finished 7th in the FedEX Cup and 15th on the money list. He nearly won the FedEx Cup!!! If it werent for that amazing shot that Mr. Haas pulled off out of the water at the Tour Champoionship Mahan would be 10 million dollars richer!!!

Your kidding right Schwartzel not being noticed. Does winning the Masters qualify you for “most underated” playerof the year? Schwartzel had a remarkable season and probably should have been nominated for “player of the year.” Your also knocking on Mahan for only having 2 top fives. How many top fives did Schwartzel have? Thats right just his win in Augusta. Mahan had 3 times as many top tens as Schwartzel and nearly won the FedEx cup. Remind me did Schwartzel even make the FedEx Cup? And in regards to Mahan missing 3 cuts, he also played in 10 more events then Schwartzel did not to mention he finished 15th on the money list while Schwartzel finished 24th. Argue with those stats.

RE:GTP I agree with you about the FedEx Cup but how does Schwartzel’s season seam underated to you. He won the M-A-S-T-E-R-S!!! In what world does winning the Masters make your season underated. Hunter was my choice for most “Underated” player because his name is rarely mentioned. Schwartzel has been one of this years most talked about players and you would be wrong to consider him underated.

RE:Dave what does that have to do with anything? We are talking about PGA Tour Players of the year here.

Luke had a great 2011. He will not win at Augusta and he will not win a major next year. Just like every other year in his career.

I mean i believe it is decided that way

In the U.S.A. vs European BEST Golfers and the idea that winning a MAJOR Tournament is the only way to establish a GREAT Golfer, take a look at the Winners of the MAJORS during the past Five years.

Last year alone, out of the Four Tournaments, only Keegan Bradley with a PGA victory was from the U.S.A.

So where are the present day GREAT Golfers from?

Congrats to Luke and Keegan on stellar performances in 2011! Luke deserved POY far and away above any other player on Tour. I think I would of voted Schwartzel for ROY but it’s certainly not as much a travesty as Fowler over McIlroy.

Sidenote: I understand that patriotism is a strong force, but why let it get in the way of logic? Blindly and stubbornly believing in something does not make it true. American and European golfers are on pretty much equal terms right now. However, the European Tour is not comparable to the PGA Tour in strength. Those two FACTS are plainly visible if you stop watching golf through a haze of patriotism and start watching it for the love of the back nine on a Sunday… regardless of who is hitting an approach shot to the 18th.

The fact is even all these young guns have some flair like Rory exs there is not a one singel golfer today who is dominated as Tiger was. I see though Rory could possible get there he has the potential for sure to dominate the game. Will it happen though i doubt that specially if Tiger can be healthy next 10 years.

Magnus…you need to read the sidenote that Lee has written and start getting realistic. Tiger Woods will not come close to winning six Tournaments in 2012.

He won’t even finish in the Top Ten in Five Tournaments during the upcoming year. He may reach the Top Five on three occasions.

I have been tracking Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson during their careers (playing in the same Tournaments) and although Tiger holds the edge overall, Phil will have a better year in 2012 then Tiger.

Mister james bond lets just wait and see!!

But seriously this is how year 2012 will go for Tiger. He will struggle little bid not much first 2-3 months then from April end of the season he will dominate like before. And 007 you can have your reasoning i can have mine, this is what i believe will happen and its my right to think so!!

All Tiger had to do was join the European Tour.

You must be against your tour’s non-member earnings page. I think I am too. Lump them all in together.

Congratulations to Luke on a fabulous performance this year. He may not be the longest but he doesn’t need to be, his short game and putting are just the best. Amateurs can learn a lot from watching him. He’s got his game under total control.

magnus many people only see black & white obviously black is not a favourite colour to some,few years he doubled the earnings off the title holder & misses out on the recognition thru lack off a signature on a bit of paper,how petty.congrats luke on great consistent year.

HAO/Hao/hao, i will respond to you one final time because i’m a kind person. as you are quite aware, my dad selected casey, simpson, mickelson. my selection is mcilroy followed by schwartzel and kim (k-t not anthony). off you go then, your yum cha awaits.

Masters goes to Tiger
Open goes to Rory
Usa open goes to Tiger
pga championship goes to Watney

My picks for for next 4 majors all in fun though:)

Congrats to both, done good.

Boy, some of you Americans just can’t hack it when someone else wins anything can you ?

Tiger is yesterdays man (and a damn good one at that). He will not catch Jack. And is he better than Jack ? No. Keep in mind Jack came second one more time in majors than he won. So when Tiger can put together a combination of 37 wins or runner ups in majors, then you can start comparing them. Jack is the best player ever.

Great year of golf for Luke and a well deserved honor.

Jack Nicklaus said Tiger Woods can still beat his record of 18 major championships — provided he can stay in control of his mental game.

* gail

I see papi is off again spewing tiger $h!t from his mouth again.

Tiger eats Bear – first off there still is no rough at Augusta or pretty much any PGA Tour course in the states. Second, the Jack era was deeper in talent then the Tiger era. Simple truth you cannot compare IFs so stop trying.

@Gail,
Hi Gail now open your eye`s and hopefully you will be able to learn something about golf and then you will be able to talk some sense. JUST WATCH LISTEN AND OBSERVE it might make you a better woman?????

Using scoring as a stat is a little misleading. Courses have been set up easier in the last 15 years then previously. This has allowed for a larger number of players to be within the lowest scoring. You don’t see a huge change in the lowest scores simply because the lowest scores are not going to get much lower no matter how easy the courses are set up.

The only courses that are being set up easier are the ones that have the weaker fields, to give it some watchability. They just hope that the guys go low and make it fun to watch. If the top thirty to fifty in the OWGR played these courses the scores would definitely get lower. That’s why you don’t see that many 59s. Those courses that are set up for the big events for the top guys are set up tougher in an attempt to keep the field closer and try to prevent a runaway which makes it more exciting to watch because you never know who’s going to be left standing on Sunday.

X24 hot – I’m more then happy to read your opinion as to why it isn’t the weakest era….please explain why you think it isn’t.

I believe that we are supposed to be congratulating POY & ROY. It seems that everyone here just likes to talk about everything but what we are supposed to be discussing. I think you all should take a break for the rest of the year and come back next year with a better understanding of the game of golf, and intelligent discussions.

To me Jack is the best player ever at this moment, until Tiger wins more Majors. I wonder how he would have done with the equipment that Jack used, and not the equipment they have today! Congratulations Luke, you deserved it! Congratulations Keegan.

Scott,
You are right about one thing and one thing only. The lowest scores don’t change much. That is a result of an astonishing balance between course setup, equipment changes and better skill in players (measurable by the way).

The score of 70 is very significant. You will see that for many decades it has represented the upper echelon of golf. It used to win the scoring average quite often and to this day only a handful of players will average sub 70 in a season. So it can act as some kind of standard of what the best players shoot on average, whether those players are better or worse than other generations or how the courses have changed.

You can see on this website (which only shows back to 1980) that an average of 70 would place you 3rd in 1980 and 11th in 2011 and usually somewhere in between those two and within close range of the Vardon winner. Very consistently with not much variance.

What is significant is that shooting 71 in 1980 would place you 12th on that list, an excellent season on tour. If you were to average 71 in 2011 you would be in a dogfight to keep your card at 115th on the list.

If you averaged 72 in 1980 and you placed 61st, a good season on tour. Average 72 today and you will be among the absolute worst 10 players on tour that stand no chance of maintaining status.

The debate about how good the best were then vs. are now is one worth having. There are many measurements to illustrate how much better they are today but it is at least worth talking about.

What is not up for discussion is the depth between eras. The field in general is so much closer to the top players now that tiny decimal places can separate first to worst. And this trend is measurably steady and consistent long before anybody stopped using a piece of wood to hit a chunk of balata so you can shelf the equipment argument.

It’s not even close. Tiger’s era kills Jack’s era and so we should look at his accomplishments with a view that they were MUCH harder to achieve. Having studied it closely as a full time job for many months, I can tell you that Tiger has played the best golf that has ever been played regardless of what equipment he used and on what course.

I just hope that Rory doesn’t become to Tiger what Jack became to Arnold over the next ten years. It will take all the wind out of my sails. But I can see it happening. The kid has the talent to do so. Oh, and congrats to Luke and Keegan, can’t wait to see you two fall off the map over the next ten years.

Tiger eats Bear – The reason there is more golfers near the top is simply because course set up and technology allows for those players to shoot lower rounds….it doesn’t necessarily mean the skills of the golfer are better.

Tiger eats Bear – I completely understand what green speed and distance do to golf courses. The average course length on the PGA tour has increased by less then 100 yards in the last 10 years. That is completely insignificant. It can also be argued that the faster green speeds and better manicured greens have actually allowed for a truer roll of the golf ball that has actually helped lower scores.

Tiger eats Bear.. Palmer, Player, Watson and Seve are better than Els, Singh, Mickelson and Duval.. Jack certainly did play in a harder era. It’s now a dawn of a new era which is much STRONGER than the era of 10 to 15 years ago. Woods will struggle big time to win 1 more Major, let alone 4 or 5.

Luke what an amazing season. The Disney display was the greatest regular season victory I have seen outside of a major in 30 yrs of golf watching! Congrats on all that you have done this year! Congrats on the new baby as well now the real work begins! Adam Oettli

Did not Monty win a money title or two in Europe? Big effin deal! He’s all but forgotten in the States. He’s a footnote when discussing Golfs elite. Congrats to Luke I hope he gets 25 top tens next year….MAJORS, BABY, MAJORS!

Thank God for Papi!! Finally, someone uses actual FACTS to illustrate just how bogus Donald’s accomplishments are. Tiger mentioned the other day why he plays so few events, as he said he needed to be totally “invested” in them to win, and if he played too many, like Luke, he wouldn’t be able to finish strongly and WIN. Luke is obviously in it only for the money and that’s ok. Nothing wrong with wanting to rpovide for your family. Just say that, and stop pretending that winning is what you’re about. If it were true, then he wouldn’t be dropping his putter on #18 at Dubai, raising his hands to the heavens like he won the event, in total disrespect to the winner, Quiros. It’s ok to grab the loot while it’s on the table and play every event. If that gets you a money title, great, but most Champions don’t play 30 events as they’re more consumed with winning the ones they play. Once again, many thanks to Papi for illuminating the truth and the fallacy of Luke’s “record.” Completely ridiculous, and I’m hoping he takes the high road and admits it. That would earn my respect, but I’m not holding my breath…

Gail it`s a pity you dont hold your breath forever. Your are a disgrace for your country and all tiger is good for is spitting all the time, very very disgraceful.

She stands up and fights for what she believes in and for others who can’t or won’t defend themselves. I would say she is a great patriot of a great country. United States of America. Don’t ever insult my country. You should probably thank it.

Tim.. A GRAND SLAM for Tiger Woods in 2012? Which FANTASAY ISLAND are you from? Your comment was a FARCE, I can’t stop laughing.

Press…totally agree, despite your other comment. Why doesn’t anyone who speaks of spitting ever reference Garcia spitting in the cup, which I witnessed? The answer, because it doesn’t allow for the haters to spew more negatives about Woods. I’m sure he reads at least some of the comments, and it’ll fuel the fire going into 2012. Like you, I want to see greatness, and right now, Tiger is the only guy that brings greatness to the table, period…

Shaun…Monty wins the Order of Merit every year, but almost needs to “Monday Qualify” on the PGA Tour to play. Doesn’t Monty’s failures when the pressure was on give you the definitive answer as to why the Euros can’t consistently win big events? Monty is the example for all of these discussions to even exist…

Gail.. I don’t really care what you think of Colin Montgomerie, he will always be a LEGEND to me “PERIOD.”

JimStats…if you’re going to include the 60 wedge, why not discuss hybrids? Many of the older players would have really benefited, and a guy like Deane Beaman immediately comes to mind. The guy that would have really gotten a lift from technology would have been Jack. I think if he was on a monitor, with the swing speed, ball speed, and launch angle that he had during his career, he could have carried the driver close to 350 yards with new technology…

….maybe downwind…..:) Shaun…happy to oblige, if you’ll just drop FACT! BTW, although I’m a huge Nicklaus fan, Tiger eats Bear is pretty accurate with his analysis…hopefully Shaun, you’re not hitting graphite shafted irons in lieu of a steel Dynamic Gold S300…. Tiger eats Bear can explain why, as I’m sure you wouldn’t have a clue….

What a lot of hot air! Let’s get a few facts straight:

FACT: PGA POY & ROY are selected by the PGA players – who better to give an unbiased result? This goes for both sides of the argument – Donald v anyone for POY 2011 and Fowler v McIlroy for ROY 2010.

FACT: Reported in the American press (Cybergolf.com) that Donald won the POY 2011 by a landslide of the players’ votes.

FACT: Donald also won the Vardon Trophy (lowest average score per round) for 2011. He averaged 68.86 per round; next up Webb Simpson at 69.25 per round.

There seems to me to be little reasonable argument against the proposition that the PGA players have got it right for 2011.

I’m a handicap golfer. I saw Nicklaus, Palmer and Player in the 1963 British Open at Lytham St. Annes (won by Bob Charles) and I saw Darren Clarke win at Sandwich in 2011 (including being 30 yards from Dustin Johnson’s magnificent hole-in-one on the Thursday). The difference – the field is much more competitive now – a far greater depth of talent. But, the two tests of golf (equipment apart) were very similar.

The conclusion? Anyone who averages 0.39 shots per round better than anyone else deserves to be player of the year.

Firstly, warmest congrats to Luke, deservedly the POY and of course to Bradley. But, like some earlier contributors, Gail jus shut up.
Having read your too many comments, it is obvious that you do not understand golf. One statistic – Luke gained 507 ranking points in 2011, which is equivalent to 5 Majors. So don’t say he is no good. Also he obviously does not play just for money as he did not go to Hong Kong where he could have earned some more and not made it a must win at the Dubai event. And as for the poor shots in his closing round, he just knuckled down and manged to end 3rd, plus of course the Race to Dubai.

Great comment Sally! The equivalent of 5 majors? Really! Please, head back to your “9-holers” group and leave the analysis to someone, anyone, that understands the game. “Go to Hong Kong where he could have earned more and not made it a must win at Dubai.” What are you talking about? Please, read your post before hitting the submit button, as this is one of your few posts, and you haven’t done well, by anyone’s scorecard…. Now off with your head!

if in fact Charl was eligible….

Do we know who had the lowest aggregate number of strokes in the four FedEX cup tournaments?

bottom line is there are 3 majors on US soil…EVERY YEAR. if you are serious about winnings majors, and cant seem to show up at them by playing exclusively in Europe or even splitting time on the two tours, then it just seems like a no-brainer that you would play mostly on US soil. however, if you do not care about winning majors and care more about $$$, then just rack up a bunch of good performances worldwide and kiss your sister. either way, i just hope he doesnt wear his watermelon suit again at augusta…wtf was that?!?

maybe donald should join the golf boys? they dont seem to care about winning majors either…at least they didnt when they released that ‘thing’ the week of the US Open, then all performed miserably.

good points gail, except that winning is everything. cant try and tell me that donald or any other pro does not put winning, any title, at the top of the list. one thing i will give donald credit for is being honest that the pressure in majors does get to him a bit…wish Monty would come correct on that point, too…same cloth

David H…you’re obsessed with the spitting, and have been for weeks. Ok, spitting is bad! Is that enough to get you on to another subject? Please, there’s dribble on your chin… stop acting like a chick…

cdub…right again! Everyone obviously wants to win, and everyone gets nervous and feels pressure. I think they’d be lying if they didn’t admit it. It’s how you handle it that counts, and admitting it is part of the process….

David H…you can talk about golf anytime, and I’m happy to oblige. To just waste time ripping Tiger does nothing for anyone. Sir Shaun and I are now having terrific discussions concerning the state of his game, as I have a new respect for the fact that he acknowledged Bo Van Pelt as a great player, despite the urge to dust him when I gave him praise. I would be happy to have a reasonable discussion anytime….

hey david, please step aside and allow gail and the rest of us debate about the topics at hand which are the POY and the ROY, not the DOY…dbag of the year, which you clearly are the front-runner for. Shaun/Gail…id agree to go off topic to discuss BVP…he is a great player. but in support of my comments to DOY/David, that would take away from the topics at hand. and Shaun, Monte is a legend….that has 0 majors. next.

David…got the old “moderation” in my reply. Bottom line, look for Tiger on the course, not off, as he and other athletes will always disappoint. You think “Sir” Nick was a better guy? He was knighted for goodness sake…..

Sir Shaun…very nice comment, and well appreciated. You’re wearing the new “knighting” very well, and I think you may have deserved it more than Nick. Nice job!!

i’m sorry, but i just received the news that BVP was ranked 44th by the pgatour.com’s three musketeers…gotta go address that. dimarco is a hater.

cdub.. European Golf is not cursed but Scottish Sport is, it pains me to say it.

Sir Shaun… as I said, the Knighting is really serving you well. When you decide to come to America, I would be proud to sponsor you for citizenship. All you have to do is sing the National Anthem, recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and then repeat after me…. Go Tiger, Go Tiger, Go Tiger….

LOL Gail.. I would love a vacation in the good old USofA.. I’ve never been where would you recommend? Also taking Golf into consideration.

moderation sucks

Early Ball.. I think you’re right about Andy Murray being the best Scottish sportsman but Sir Chris Hoy has achieved greatness in certain catagories of his sport and Murray has not.. yet.

Jim Stats-

I have a very long response to your questions that I have tried to post several times over the last few hours but it keeps getting moderated no matter how I post it. It is very annoying.

I’d like to address your points and discuss it with you as you seem to be one of the very few on this site with valuable things to add and a good understanding of that type of analysis. I’m glad you saw what I had to say. And there’s lots more where that came from.

I’ll try to post it again at some point so have an eye for it.

-Tiger eats Bear (on the hook)

Sir Shaun Agree about Hoy. You could say the same for Dario Franchitti

Thanks TeB I appreciate it.

You shold try to post pargraph by paragraph.

It seems like the moderation is really done by an automatic word counter that also looks for specific words, as opposed to someone actually reading the comments.

Gail.. Pinehurst is in South Carolina right? Same with Kiawah Island? I’ve heard a lot of good things about the 2 Carolina’s when it comes to playing Golf and i’m sure the weather is pretty good all year round. Thanks Gail, i’ll look up all the places you mentioned. Playing Pebble Beach would be a dream come true, I have a panaramic framed picture taken from the sky of Pebble Beach and St Andrews in my house, I have already played the latter and ticked it of my bucket list, I would love to do the same for Pebble Beach.

X24 hot – I don’t disagree that you can’t compare eras but it seems Tiger eats Bear thinks you can and he is doing his thesis on it even.

OK Jim Stats, here it goes paragraph by paragraph. But theres a lot!…

I have researched and of course will be discussing at length the issues of equipment evolution including wedge and iron technology as it relates to grooves, bounces and lofts as you mention. Other equipment changes like driver heads, shafts, balls, course maintenance and computer fitting technology are all discussed.

It is clear that all of these things have a significant effect on scoring and, combined with course changes, the world of competitive golf is different in every era. As such there are severe limitations in using “absolute” scores to evaluate skill between eras. Limitations of data is a major component of any study of this kind and it is also discussed at length. More accurately, an evaluation of what that data is and is not telling us.

I think you might be alluding specifically to a change in style that has happened as a result and you would be right to think so. The ability to bomb and gauge with spin from the rough and save yourself from crazy places around the green definitely selects a certain type of player. But every era and golf course selects a certain type of player and we can’t get around that. Wedge plus ball is only one example among many. As you will see, that is not really the point. We will be measuring something different.

Because of all this, the way to evaluate strength of eras is to evaluate statistical distributions, primarily with average scores. And that doesn’t mean what most people think of as “Stats”. It is an evaluation of the population (tour) as a whole and how individual scores are spread out. And golf scores on tour make a very beautiful “normal distribution” for the most part which makes it very easy to study and draw conclusions. Terms like mean, median, standard deviation, variance, skewness and statistical outlier may ring familiar to you and others (the real nerds among us!). And they are the weapons of an argument like mine.

Got stuck again… still working on it

And this increase of parity and depth can be trusted despite equipment and course changes very conclusively because it has happened in a very steady and predictable manner over time. The same pattern can be seen from 1950-1980 as from 1980-2010 when technology really took off. There are long periods of time during which there was no meaningful equipment changes of any kind. For decades, players used the same piece of persimmon and a set of kitchen knives to hit a chunk of balata. Yet, like clockwork, more players approached the lower scores that the very best were averaging. This happened so precisely, in fact, that one could extrapolate the data to say what players would be averaging relative to the Vardon Trophy winner 10 years in the future.

As this relates to Tiger’s individual performance, his data set is such a statistical outlier from these scoring distributions that I cannot even put it into words. What that means is he clearly separated himself in a statistically significant way from the other players in a way Jack nor anyone else ever even came close to. And he did it when the fields were more competitive than ever.

Anybody who thinks they have anything better to say to me than “Jack, Tom, Gary and Seve were just better”…well you better bring your “A” game because that’s not enough. Your work is still ahead of you.

They were undoubtedly great but they got to swim in a much shallower pond.

THE END

-look forward to your feedback Jim Stats (and others)

TeB – as of right now you haven’t shown us any of this data. I would find it interesting to see these numbers over each decade. I would agree that there are more people capable of winning in this decade then in the past few decades but I still believe the PGA Tour has made it possible for more players to contend because of course set up. The top players are only going to shoot so low regardless of how easy the set up is….its those middle of the pack players that are going to see the largest change in scoring average because they are going to get more looks at birdies. It would be interesting to see how change there has been between the average top score and the average cut line.

Scott- obviously there is a logistical problem with me presenting dozens of pages of graphical data on this chatboard. I can tell you that cut lines definitely trend closer to the leading scores over time…a good thought there!

I’m not sure your argument that only midpack players scores drop with an easier setup holds any merit. It seems contrived and you offer no reasons, subjective or empirical, why that might be true.

Even the notion that the courses are easier puts you on shaky ground. An opinion with not much substance. It appears in most instances that courses actually are set up harder than ever. Primarily because of distance which is very misunderstood even when adjusted for equipment.

Distance…

People think that 500 yards (320y drive + 180y 7 iron) today compared with 420 yards (270y drive + 150y 7 iron) must be equivalent.

Well it doesn’t work that way. We miss shots by degrees, not yards. So those two approach shots are not the same thing. Missed by the same margin, the modern shot will be 20% further off line in both distance and direction. That may be offset somewhat by equipment factors but not entirely so, especially in the iron game which has not changed as much technologically as other areas.

This becomes very significant when considered against the expected stroke value of where a player putts from. For instance a 150 yard shot that ends 10 ft from the hole would have ended 11-12 ft from the hole from 180 if missed by the same margin even though it was the same loft hitting the shot.

Over time, the advantage of being 10 ft from the hole instead of 12 ft is huge. It’s even more significant as you get closer to the hole.

You contradicted yourself so perfectly in a single sentence at the end…

“The players always get closer to the best score, that’s why I don’t subscribe to the idea that Jack had it easier when he was playing”

If there are many more players close to the best scores, and hence in contention to win (and therefore winning) then how could it not have been easier for Jack?

What you will see if you look at leaderboard after leaderboard, as I have, is that a field in the 1960′s had around 50 recognizable players who contended or won with any regularity. A modern field is full of potential winners.

These things are not points of view, they are facts.

And the quote of 1950-1980 and 1980-2010 might not have been explained well enough.

The point is that from 1950-1980 very little changed with equipment relative to recent times. Yet the same pattern and rate of scores approaching the elite average occurred as it did when titanium and proV1′s came around.

Players just got better and there were more of them progressively over time.

Mr Sarazen!

Thank you! I didn’t know that, good to know.

So I guess, then Arnold also had a Sand Wedge.

Do you happen to know the degrees on that Wedge? I mean, not specifically Jack’s but what was the standard loft for a Sand Wedge back then?

Sandwedges and mysterious double eagles. It’s what I do. cheers

i have a question for the stat gurus.back in arnie jack tom ect days, was equipment more stanard as in everyone playing level field, in todays game at one stage you have the advantage off hitting the ball further and more accurate then your opponents because you have a higher skill level & you don’t need the help off modern technology ,but once its introduced does it not diminish your advantage & therefore help bring your competitors closer to you. similar with long putter.did this type of thing happen back then .appreciete your thoughts.cheers

Scott,
You make some great points. Many of them are factors in my limitations of data. The history of fairway maintenance is much as you describe it. One conclusion you make seems incomplete though. While the fairways may have been narrower for lack of irrigation at times, the same reasons made “the rough” a much different concept. It was more of a sparse area in many instances as opposed to a lush and long rough we see on courses today, especially in majors. I’m sure you would agree.

But saying one is more difficult than the other leaves us where we have always been, trying to compare 2 different things. You are no more correct to say the course was harder then than somebody who claims the opposite…

TeB – I do agree that in majors the rough is more lusher and longer but in weekly events the rough is mowed to much shorter lengths and the lush rough allows for more balls to sit up on the rough and easier to get out. In the past the rough was allowed to grow with little to no maintenance. In weekly events the rough was significantly longer in the past then today. It becomes a combination of many factors that make me believe that today’s golfers are bunched closer together not because the skill of the golfer has increased that much but the technology has allowed the golfer to make shots they couldn’t have made previously or at the very least increased their chances of making fewer bad shots.

For anybody who would like a basic glimpse into this effect go to the Stats section of this website…

Look at the actual scoring average from 1980 to 1989. That is one decade where not much changed in the way of equipment played or how courses were set up. Specifically, look at what the scores 71, 72, 73 would have done for you on tour that year and how far behind the best player and the baseline score of 70 you would have been.

You will see a relatively gradual and predictable change with each year usually slightly better than the last.

In 1980, 61 players averaged 72 or better.

By 1989, 145 would do the same while the leading score stayed constant as did our baseline of 70.

This effect is observable in all eras with all equipment on all golf courses. More players contend to win now than ever before.

I don’t think it matters what era tiger plays in he would still be one of the top golfers in history. Do I think he would have dominated the competition like he did in the late 90s and 2000s…no.

Well Scott, those are not absurd thoughts even though I disagree with them entirely. Tiger may have become erratic with driver but driver accuracy is actually the statistic that is least correlated with scoring success. That has been true in both eras we’re talking about.

But don’t forget that Tiger won many of his early majors hitting absurdly high numbers of fairways with stinger 2 irons and 3 woods. He won at Hoy Lake hitting driver only 1 time in 4 days and missing only 4 fairways.

On 6800 yard golf courses, he could have played a game that was completely different from everybody else with nothing but a set of blades.

I’m not sure why you think the rough would have been so insurmountable to him then on shorter courses but not now.

theres no way off telling what would have happened back then totally different eras,its the same with boxing you can think what you like but we’ll never know. but if it helps scott i have heard jack say on the box he could never play some off the shots tiger plays.{just trying to help you decide.}

I thinking I’m cracking the MODERATION code.

Never start a post with FIRST OFF.

1. more players will hit lower scores, and so the shape of that bell would be taller and narrower.
2. You will continue to see the exceptional ones, those shootingn half a stroke better than the rest. You know the names of these guys.

so the question really is, hos much more crowded was the Long Tail in Jack’s time than it is today?

Sorry, for all the misspelling, I was trying to get my posts together and got a little quicker with the typing.

@ Tiger Eats Bear – Regarding your comment saying how much Tiger would dominate golf in jack Nicklaus’ Era … How could Tiger Woods possibly get the Golf Ball airborne with the Rusty Old Wooden Clubs and poor golf balls Jack Nicklaus had to use?

In fact, a few years ago many of the PGA Tour pros tried out some of the older clubs and balls, for fun, and virtually none of the players got the ball in the air.

Think about Equipment first and remember that players in Jacks’ day were far better than the players today…

arguably*

@ Magnus – And you need to take a look at the field too. The Nedbank Event Lee Westwood won had a FAR STRONGER field than the Chevron. The lowest ranked player in the World in the Nedbank was Darren Clarke at #38 and he’s only the reigning Open Champ. The lowest ranked player in the Chevron was Mr. Woods himself at #52. Then Gary Woodland was #48, Zach Johnson was #47, and Jim Furyk was #45. Luke Donald, Westwood himself of course and Martin Kaymer, World number 1,3 and 4 respectively played in the Nedbank. Adam Scott, World Number 7, also competed.

The highest ranked player in Chevron was Steve Stricker at #6 and lets be honest he is far from a prolific winner, though I am a fan of his game. Then you got Jason Day #8 who’s won a grand old total of ONE PGA Tour Title and Webb Simpson at #9 who simply had a career year for a player like him. He will never have such success if he played out there another 20 years.

@ G T P – Fact also remains that the Top 4 spots in the world golf rankings are European Tour Card Holders. 3 of them FULL TIME MEMBERS with luke playing both Tours.

What is also a fact is in the last 8 Majors only 2 Americans have won and one of them (Bradley) was an unlikely source. The other 6 are European Tour Card holders.

And finally G T P – Haven’t Europe just about OWNED team USA in 4 of the last 5 Ryder Cup matches?!?!?

Note; Tiger Woods was not on the 2008 US Team, the only win Team USA had in the last 5.

So who was it that said the USA NEED Tiger on their team again? Much like the Presidents Cup when Kyung-Tae Kim gave him and Dustin Johnson a beat down single-handedly and Tiger LOSING all 3 of his first 3 matches. Then he wins against a struggling Baddeley yo secure the winning point, this could have been ANYONE as USA’s win was a certainty.

BTW the Presidents Cup should be in danger of going completely as the Internationals team was very average, if Europe was added Euro/Int would dominate no doubt about it.

hi

So what? If Tiger Woods played 20 US Events and has 4 wins and say 12 top 10s, then goes on to win POY, they will jsut say “consistency is key to his poy award”? I seriously doubt it, they would call it “Tiger Dominance”

I read earlier a few people making their predictions in the Majors for 2012 so I will do mine now;

The Masters; Luke Donald will contend, as will KJ Choi and Mcilroy, I think Donald will win.

The US Open: Dustin Johnson – I say this because I believe he is America’s best player under 30 years old and of course has already had 2 huge chances of Major Succes, it’s his time.

The Open Championship – If Tiger wins a Major in 2012 I believe it’ll be the Open. I say this because he has already won 2 using just a 2 iron for most tees. St. Andrews and Hoylake. Innaccurate driving lowered by use of 2 iron.

PGA Championship – I think Martin Kaymer could do it again! This German kid is the REAL DEAL. Joined the European Tour in 2007, won 2007 Rookie of the Year and ALREADY 10 European Tour Wins and 18 Professional wins. Got the WGC not too long ago with exhibition Iron Shots in the final round.

If Kaymer doesn’t do it again, I’m going for another European, Rory Mcilroy for Major number 2. Americans need to start taking this kid’s talent SERIOUSLY.

They only care about money you said, not wins.

Why does a player like Stewart Cink who’s only won 6 events in nearly 20 years have well over 30 MILLION Dollars? Cink to me is for the money. Why has he held the 54 hole lead over 10 times and only won ONE?!?!?

I’ve already said Donald thoroughly deserved his POY award and on to Keegan Bradley now.

Yes, the PGA Tour got it right this time. Mcilroy should have got it in 2010 since he actually won on the PGA Tour something Fowler still hasn’t. Fowler also failed again to make the Tour Championship.

Congrats to Bradley on a Major year! That being said I cant see him emulating that success in 2012. I am not a fan of the long putters too just to make that clear. It’s a form of cheating and should not be in the professional game.

Early shout for Rookie of the Year 2012;

Some say Bud Cauley even though he isn’t proven.

Here is the real deal right here, a young Korean star.

His name is Seung-Yul Noh.

He is about 5 ft 10, 160 pounds skinny little thing and hits the ball forever! Some how! (shakes head :( )

Noh averaged over 304 yards on the European Tour 2011 and was ranked in the top 5.

Noh hits the ball miles, he is a very good iron player, aggressive iron player, solid putter and makes a ton of birdies! As he proved at the Q School by coming top 3 in birdies over the 6 days.

I will be absoltely shocked if Seung-Yul Noh doesn’t win the 2012 PGA Tour Rookie Of the Year Award.

Jim Stats,
Love it! You’re right on track, but drawing the wrong conclusion. The data has answers (not beliefs).

The bell curve you mentioned, if shaped properly, is what’s called a normal distribution in statistics as I referred to it in the long post. The “long tail” (or short as the case may be) represents the less frequent occurrences that fall outside the more expected numbers found in the center of the curve. In our experiment, this means the very best scores and also the very worst.

So the part you got wrong, Jim, was that the long tail was NOT more crowded in Jack’s time. It was much longer and less crowded. That’s why less players contended and eventually won golf tournaments and therefore could win more of them. That gives people the impression those players were better if the only criteria for evaluation was number of majors won.

***I cannot stress this part enough***
This effect occurs gradually and predictably over time during all eras with all types of equipment used. Even for long stretches when equipment and other factors do not change whatsoever, the compression effect continues like clockwork.

This is strong evidence to support that more players simply got better. Not because of their equipment. Just better. Why wouldn’t that be the case when the population as a whole and the number of people playing golf rises dramatically and more people play golf?

TeB, Very interesting stuff, you’ve obviously done your homework. I’m wondering if you have information regarding the “head game”? Are players today better than in the past era? We hear “stay in the moment”, “get out of my own way…” and stuff of that nature. Does your research indicate any trend one way or the other?

Early ball…You’re ? Who had better career Curtis or Monty? The answer: Monty

My ? Who has had better career Bradley or Monty?
Answer: BRADLEY

There is a term we use in Stats called Standard Deviation that represents how far from average an observation occurs. For anybody who knows what that is, Tiger’s 2007 record (tied with 2000) adjusted scoring average of 67.79 was more than 4 standard deviations from the mean on tour. It was also a full 2 standard deviations higher than second place finisher Ernie Els at 69.29.

It’s impossible for me to explain to you here what an astonishing thing that is in the world of probabilities. Nothing even in the same universe has been done by any other golfer, including Jack.

Tiger holds the 8 highest values for separating himself from his peers when his peers were the hardest in history to separate from.

TeB, we have a relatively new stat, strokes gained putting, actually a more telling number than others. I’m wondering if it is possible to quantify “strokes lost gagging”, as we see quite frequently players losing control of their game at various points during any event, especially Majors.

“Strokes Gagged” would have to have some way of determining how far under an expected putting value you fall from defined distances depending on how far from the lead you are and how important the event and where it occurred in the tournament.

It would be very complex and difficult to defend as accurate. It would also lose significance because of small sample size. How often is any one player in those moments? Too few observations to be meaningful in most cases I would think.

And of course, sometimes a choke is just bad luck and a clutch putt is just good luck. Rub of the green matters. Sometimes we underappreciate high finishes and overappreciate wins (ie. Keegan Bradley in my opinion) when in fact nothing really separated them.

But TeB that’s exactly my point.

You see the Bell Curve getting more crowded to the left, because now players score a lot more 60′s than in the past.

If Tiger was able to separate himself from the rest by that much is prove of how good he was, but you are talking about scores here, and we already agreed that scores alone don’t paint a good enough picture.

I mentioned Majors, because that’s the ultimate goal in Golf, and right now Jack holds the record, and our discussion right now is about who had it tougher, Tiger or Jack, so we can actually take MAJORs as our gauge here, because we’re not talking about a yaer or two, but a career-long sample, so we can be talking of about 60 majors each at this point, that’s significant enough.

So, I agree with you, winningn every week has become harder now than it was in Jack’s time, because of technology, training, and the simple fact that kids now get to see a lot more incredible shots thanks to all the media around, etc.

But a golf course set-up for a Major is distinctively more challenging, and designed to separate the Extraordinary Golfers from the Extremely good ones. The Extraordinary Golfers will win a handful, the Extremely good will win more than 2, and then you have Very good players winning 1 or 2, and obviously players who just played amazing one week in their careers.

So, if Tiger doesn’t have his AAA Game the week of the Major, then I agree that there’s a larger number of players who can win it. But if he’s at the top of his game, he had the absolute biggest chance.
Now, when Jack was playing, there were years when he was absolutely the undisputable favorite, but eventually he lost that distinction, not because he wasn’t in his AAA game, but because you started to see other guys who consistently challenged him, Guys who had the game to not only win any week, but to win The Most Important week of their lives.

So, to sum it up.
* Yes, I agree with you that winning regular torunaments today is way harder than it was before.
* I still believe that the number of Extraordinary players was larger in Jack’s time.

So I will have to agree with you, I don’t have the data to prove that point, I should make a New Year’s resolution to prove that thesis. If you ever get to do that analysis let me know.

It’s been fun TeB.

Not absolute scores Jim, relative scores!

Your thesis is well…let’s just say your work is ahead of you! I would say that my work is the exact proof that your thesis is wrong and if you saw some of this stuff I think you’d be astonished. I didn’t set out to prove anything in my mind. I had no hypothesis. It just becomes very apparent when you compile hundreds of leaderboards and scoring averages how few competitive players there was in previous times and how that changes steadily, not in waves. The greatness of those old multiple major winners may be an illusion. But don’t get me wrong…I love them all!

By the way, 40 major winners per decade is the number I’m worried about and it is actually not nearly enough to be statistically significant. Statistical significance is a measurement by the way, not just an opinion.

Jack’s 60 vs. Tiger’s 60? Again, not what we’re measuring.

But it’s been a slice. Hope it gives you something to think on.

cheers

Brads.. what the hell are talking about? You say Monty has had a better career than Ben Curtis but not Keegan Bradley.. how do you figure that one out? Curtis has won 3 PGA Tour event including the Open Championship while Bradley has only won 2 PGA Tour events including the PGA Championship.. which in my opinion is the lesser of all the 4 Majors. You maybe the new DELUDED ONE.

…it just so happens that all those other reasons point directly to Tiger

Brads.. One fluke win in a Major and you cla$$ Bradley to have a better career than Colin Montgomerie? YOU ARE A TOTAL FARCE!! Monty has 31 European Tour victories, a RECORD 8 Order of Merits and UNBEATEN in 8 Ryder Cup singles matches.. who cares about 1 Major when you’ve had a career like Monty. You may aswell declare your love for this Bradley bloke. You are JOKE if you think he is anywhere near a TOP CLA$$ Golfer that will compete with the BEST week in week out.

Bradley may well have a better career than Monty but that remains to be seen. He has certainly made a good start.

Brads, you are a wind up merchant. The European tour is top drawer these days. I think the Americans would improve if they came over and played more often. Very different courses and very different weather.

Masters, OPEN, US Open, PGA….in that order.

Shaun a lot of people want to believe the Open is the greatest because they think they’re supposed to. But the courses are not distinguishable to most fans and the tournaments are sometimes not as memorable because of it. They also tend to produce more one off winners than the Masters or the US Open (maybe not the PGA).

Almost any halfway fan could list the green jacket winners of the last 10 years but I bet they’d get stuck on a lot of Opens.

1 Masters
2 Tie between Open and US Open
4 Clearly the PGA

Why do they call it “The Open Championship” ???
It’s The British Open always was always will be!
Long live Mrs. Doubtfire!!!!

What a load of rubbish that Shaun talks. The open championship is the best golf event in the world and always will be.

Well done Bradley you deserve great credit what you have achieved this past year and to receive the award for rookie of the year, was well deserved congratulations.